Talk:Manticoran Alliance
References We should perhaps try to move more information to individual articles, the references section is really getting out of hand otherwise... -- SaganamiFan 23:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC) :Yep. To lazy to create them.--dotz 06:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC) ::lol - I sympathize. -- SaganamiFan 12:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC) too much uncertainty/deduction in text Several entries here say something to the effect that it's uncertain whether this was so or not. Or given this statement it's probable that such and such was so... Should this sort of thing be part of the article itself? It leads the Gentle Reader to concentrate on the difficulties editors have figuring out what Weber hasn't said, not on what is known about whatever it is. I think such uncertainty or deductive reasoning belongs better on a discussion page. Comments? Wikipedia ww 23:03, September 10, 2009 (UTC) : I agree. These deductions are very well though through, but many of it can be shortened or moved to the talk page for further discussion. We'll have to do a major clean-up on articles where half the page is the "references" section, and as much as possible should be moved to individual articles. -- SaganamiFan (Talk) 23:36, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::After your KIS work I'll try to recapitulate some general features concerning things, that were not exactly defined by DW (it is still some real knowledge). I suggest also to consider Sidemore the member of the alliance (and comment concerning it was never mentioned as such - in references - Manticore had even more distant allies).--dotz 05:41, September 11, 2009 (UTC) Sidemore Commodore? Honor Harrington contemplated recommending such an arrangement during the campaign to stop Andre Warnecke's depredations, in part because of the tension between the Andermani Empire and the Star Kingdom of Manitcore over competing interest and influence in the Silesian Confederacy. THer suggestion was followed up by Manticore. The base became a major part of the conflict between Haven and Manitcore when Haven sent 2nd Fleet under Admiral Lester Tourville all the way across the Silesian Confederacy to attack the Manticoran base in Marsh at the beginning of the second Haven-Manticore war in 1921 PD. pro memoria --dotz 08:44, September 12, 2009 (UTC) Possible inclusion ...in the Star Empire as a 'Manticoran Quadrant' or 'Home Quadrant'? It occured to me that with the end of active hostilities with Haven and the establishment of a tentative military alliance between the Star Empire and the Republic against their common enemy, the Mesan Alignment, that the need for the Manticoran Alliance would end. I doubt that its members, like the Anderman Empire, would have cause for conflict with the Alignment and its proxies in the Solarian League, with the exception of the Protectorate of Grayson. But, those same members had been tied to the Star Kingdom, and later the Star Empire, for more than twenty years by that point. Their modern infrastructure was built with Manticoran investment, their navies were trained at Saganami Island and consisted of units either built by or transferred from Manticore, and their are probably even more ties that we're not even aware of because they haven't been stated in the series. They have to realize that they're in better shape with Manticore than without them, so why not simply extend invitations to them to join the Star Empire? The precendent has already been established in the Talbott Cluster before its annexation into the Star Empire. I know that the threat of conquest by the Office of Frontier Security was the primary motivator in that case and I know that the end of hostilities with Haven removes the similar threat where the Alliance's members are concerned, but again they've been allies of Manticore for twenty years, their prosperity is linked to it. They could easily request annexation, hold the required plebescites to prove their citizens want it, and then join the Star Empire on the model of the Talbott Quadrant and serve as an added example for the future peaceful inclusion of Manticore's territories in Silesia through economic and social prosperity. Then the Old Star Kingdom of the Star Empire would become the 'Manticoran Quadrant' or, unofficially, the 'Home Quadrant' (DarkScribe 18:33, August 2, 2010 (UTC)) : I don't think the need has ended: : 1. It'll be some time, if ever, before the Solarian League realizes how they're being manipulated by the Mesan Alignment. In the mean time, they probably will continue with the aggression and annexation (via OFS protectorates), or at least try. : 2. There is every reason to believe that the Mesan Alignment will attack the Alliance members. If Grayson is a target for the MSN, why arent the others? : 3. Both Manticore and Haven now have an axe to grind with the Mesan Alignment: they've been used, and they paid for Mesan's scheming in blood. Do you think the other Alliance members will see it much differently? : 4. The Spider drive. Its a game changer in a number of ways, and Haven has the chief scientist who develloped it. They're going to share that tech with Manticore. Do you think Manticore is going to share that tech with navies that won't be helping them hunt down the MSN? : Emteeoh 16:37, August 3, 2010 (UTC) : @1. According to the latest book, I doubt the Solarian League will have much time to do much of anything fairly soon. The next attack on Manticore itself by the SLN is suppose to be the next domino to fall in the Alignment's plan. Detweiler's recorded message to the other heads of the Renaissance Factor states that he's been assured the follow up attack which is suppose to follow the Manticoran victory will he suspended. At that point, as state in his earlier meeting with the same heads of state, Alignment operatives elsewhere will enact their plans to commence "spontaneous rebellions" throughout the Verge and the Shell that will serve as an added shock to the reputation of the SLN. So, the League may not be around much longer. : @2. The Alignment's long-term objective is the forced "improvement" of the human race (which reminds me a lot of the Nazis) through eugenics. The smaller members of the Alliance don't know that. All they know is that they signed on to protect themselves from Haven. With the threat from Haven evaporated and the new threat of the Solarian League (which is directed solely at Manticore and by association Grayson) they may decide that it's not their fight. And Grayson was a target for the MAN because it, like Manticore, was a threat to their long-term plans. : @3. The other Alliance members may see it much differently. The Alignment hasn't revealed itself yet. Manticore has one of their scientists to provide testimonial proof that it does, but one man's word without further evidence doesn't mean everyone in the Alliance will fall lockstep in behind Manticore. The Alliance members can withdraw at any time. An example of that is Erewhon's departure because of High Ridge's stupidity. Manticore has to convince the other members of the Alliance that they're correct about the Alignment, not the League, beind their true enemy. : @4. Haven, because of Zilwicki and Cachat, have in their posession one of the Alignment's leading scientists on the development of the streak drive, not the spider drive. He probably knows something about the spider drive, but we can't say for certain because the Alignment keeps itself heavily compartmentalized. How else would it hid itself for 600 years? I could see new Manticoran, Grayson, and Havenite construction incorporating the streak drive for faster hyperspace speeds, but I don't think we'll see Allied ships using the spider drive any time soon. : But, none of that has anything to do with the possiblity of the old Alliance members possibly joining the SEM as part of a 'Manticoran Quadrant'. -- DarkScribe 20:56, August 3, 2010 (UTC) :: Some paralegal comments: :: # The core of the Manticoran Alliance were SKM and Grayson. Other members were changable (Erewhon/Andermans, minor nations willing in HH11 to end the war). :: # Both Manticore and Grayson were attempted by Oyster Bay. :: # There were never and nowhere stated how long the alliance should last (I mean no one of us have read whole Manticoran Alliance Charter or bilateral treaties). :: # Wider alliance is possible (Beowulf was potential victim, Maya and Haven were Erewhon's allies, and "when you see a shotgun in the first act, it have to shot in the third act", which I mean the mutual defence clause at Haven-Erewhon treaty will come in power somewhen). :: For more hints I invite to HH12 talk page. --dotz 21:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Joint forces * the Second Fleet ( ) * the Eighth Fleet, ( - , - ) * the Home Fleet, ( ) * High Admiral Matthews' joint task force ( ) * minor systems pickets, eg. in Zanzibar or Alizon Systems (HH3, HH8, HH11) --dotz (talk) 20:03, April 30, 2013 (UTC)